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How does this 'law' apply to us?
April 4, 2012
8:52 am
free_az
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Hi Guys,

I don't often share files, especially not popular media, but I'm just trying to figure out some things just in-case this 
legislation is abused. I know a couple of lawyers and have picked their brains on this question but they keep 
dodging it or just give me silly answers. I've read about contracts, inherent/natural/common law, notaries 
and various other legal things, I am by no means claiming to be an expert, far from it.
 

My question is somewhat in the form of a hypothetical scenario and may perhaps be 
better suited for some forum for lawyers or something, but any info may be helpful.
 

So.. I'm wondering how this legislation actually applies to people. Especially if one 
hasn't signed a contract that binds them to it. I understand that many people won't 
know the answer to this question, and if one is faced with a fine as a breach of this 
legislation one would probably just make the assumption that the legislation applies 
to them, as this seems to be the general consensus. But I want to go that step further 
and would like to know how it actually works. There is a maxim of law that goes 
something like "He who does not deny, admits." so if nobody deny's that this 
legislation applies to them, it just does.
 

This could possibly be put as a simple scenario. Firstly, all men are made equal 
under God's law. Lets say that -as an equal of yours- I wrote some words on a 
piece of paper and called it a 'law', I then sent you a letter notifying you that 
you had to pay me $15,000 because you did not comply with this new law 
I had just written. If you just pay me the $15,000 dollars, you are agreeing 
that this 'law' I've just written applies to you when really I have shown you 
no proof. In reality you would have every right tell me to bugger off and 
to ask me for proof that this applies to you. As far as I'm aware, I would 
need some form of signed contract that binds you to the words I've written, 
else they're just random words on a piece of paper that I wrote. 
Do you catch my drift? If you asked me for proof that this 'law' applies 
to you and I just told you "because it's the law" that doesn't prove anything.
 

Back to my question. How does this legislation apply to us? 
If we were taken to court and we asked for the foundation evidence, 
would there be any? The foundation evidence being the proof 
(possibly in the form of a signed contract?) that this legislation 
has any authority over us.
 

Your kind answers and opinions please.

Many thanks,
FA
April 5, 2012
3:29 pm
dbuckley
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Your lawyer mates are probably telling you not to be daft.

But here is the bottom line:

As someone present New Zealand, you are a subject of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.  She empowered Parliament to make laws, and to provide appropriate sanctions to those who break them.

That is the authority over you. 

So your statement that all men are made equal under God's law is obviously broken; as someone far more famous than I noted, some animals are more equal than others.  So you may be my equal, but you are not an equal of Her Maj.

(And you'll never be faced by a "fine" under the Infringing File Sharing legislation; you may be required to pay an "award".  The difference is a fine is a sum of money ordered to be paid by a criminal court as a punishment, and that money that ends up in the government's coffers.  An award is a civil remedy where one party is instructed to hand over money to another party to right a wrong)

April 7, 2012
8:03 pm
free_az
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Awesome reply dbuckley thanks heaps! I can totally comprehend that. Pay an award, haha that's awesome.

 

One thing I don't understand. If Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is not an equal, where does she claim her authority from? Can she show us proof of this claim?

 

Cheers

April 7, 2012
8:50 pm
dbuckley
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It's hereditory, based on some ancient rellies of hers who beat up other people to be declared guvnor of all England.  All happening hundreds and in some cases thousands of years ago, back when they played tick with hatchets and went jousting and generally killing one another in the name of honour.  When it all quietened down a bit and the petty squables ended by about the 1600s people just accepted the monarch, as by then there were the sembleces of a parliamentary democracy, and the monarch was effectively a figurehead, as Her Maj QE II is to this day.

However, for New Zealand, when Her Maj goes, I think it is time we became an independent republic.

This wont be simple, as there is a lot of hat-tipping to the Treaty of Waitangi, and of course, that binds the Crown, and if we become a reublic, thats the end of the Treaty.  So before we become a republic we have to get to the point where everyone can agree that the Treaty has served its purpose, and we can go forward as one New Zealand.  That wont be without its challenges.

April 9, 2012
3:56 pm
Vikram
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Even if we have a change of the form of head of state, it doesn't change the fundamental issue that approaching criminal law as a contract doesn't make sense.

April 11, 2012
1:31 pm
free_az
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Thanks dbuckley,

So ultimately what you've outlined in your post is that Her Maj QE II derives her authority from the use of force. These are more peaceful times, surely she can't go to war with everyone who refuses to recognise her authority? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think she's even sworn an oath to protect the common rights of 'the people' or something like that. From my understanding of common law, it has nothing to do with statutory regulations unless you agree to them (could be totally wrong here, just trying to paint a nice picture).

 

@Vikram – I guess the foundational question is: What gives anyone the right to write words on paper and call it 'criminal law' and it have automatic authority over everyone on a specified land mass? is it the use of force?

 

If I had enough capital I could employ legislators and others to be my 'police force' and write something called 'criminal law' and then assume it applies to everyone in a defined area, lets say my neighbourhood. In reality it has nothing to do with the people living in my neighbourhood unless they have entered into a contract with me or one of my 'policy enforcers' or legislators by either signing an agreement that my newly created 'criminal law' applies to them or they've just assumed that it applies to them. Assumption can bind you as much as you like it to.

The only thing that makes the above scenario any different to our current one is that Her Maj owns a lot more policy enforcers and other legislative resources than I do, but still – how does it apply to me if I have not made an assumption that it does? I haven't consciously signed anything. The majority would go along with it out of fear, but what about those brave souls who have stood their ground?

Speaking of which – here's a short edit from various radio interviews. His name is Max Igan, I don't know this man personally but have friends over the ditch that do. I find the work that he's doing very intriguing, especially when applied to this subject of discussion. 
 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the police are a fantastic for the most part, I like to sleep at night knowing my kids are safe. However in these modern times the Police have two very different jobs. One is protecting the public from harmful intruders of our most basic of rights. But their other job is to enforce statutory regulations upon the public, no matter how ridiculous or totalitarian they may be. It is this other job that a lot of people around the world are disagreeing with, and a lot of groups and individuals are beginning to separate themselves from statutory regulations by not being a party to them. There is proof on the web if you have time to search.

Governing ones own affairs comes with responsibility I guess.. I'm definitely intrigued by this whole movement and would love to learn more, hence this whole discussion.

 

Soz for any spelling mistakes

April 11, 2012
2:13 pm
free_az
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@dbuckley I definitely agree that NZ should become a republic by the true definition of the word :)

 

I think the first step would be to teach civic and law studies in public schools so that we can all eventually grasp how these concepts work. At the moment we're taught nothing.. is that on purpose? lol ;)

April 16, 2012
3:01 pm
dbuckley
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free_az said:

So ultimately what you've outlined in your post is that Her Maj QE II derives her authority from the use of force.

Ultimately, and historically, yes, her mob "won".  New Zealand is quite unusual in that we didn't get "colonised" (ie taken by force) like many places the English went many years ago, we got treatied, so the folks who were here at the the time (Maori) actually got a choice of what to do, and made a deal with Her Maj's predecessors.

 

These are more peaceful times, surely she can't go to war with everyone who refuses to recognise her authority?

She doesn't have to: she has people, "The State"

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the police are a fantastic for the most part, I like to sleep at night knowing my kids are safe. However in these modern times the Police have two very different jobs. One is protecting the public from harmful intruders of our most basic of rights. But their other job is to enforce statutory regulations upon the public, no matter how ridiculous or totalitarian they may be.

I share some of your concerns.  A number of police forces around the world have a tagline something like "to protect and serve", which I think is absolutely appropriate. NZ Police Association President Greg O'Connor describes the NZ Police Service as "The coercive arm of the state", which although it is undoubtedly true, that role should be secondary to the "protect and serve" role.  O'Connor has further remarked (in the context of more guns in the hands of the Police) that we should just get used to more people getting shot.

 

If I had enough capital I could employ legislators and others to be my 'police force' and write something called 'criminal law' and then assume it applies to everyone in a defined area, lets say my neighbourhood.

No.  A bunch of people are trying this right now in Syria, and it isn't very pretty.  The established forces are numerically strong and well resourced, and will use whatever force is necessary to prevent you from doing this.

 

If you don't like being under the thumb of a government, there is another option one can consider, and that is to go to a country that doesn't have a government, or at least not one that is effective.  Somalia is an example.

April 16, 2012
4:27 pm
free_az
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Thanks for your help dbuckley,

 

You've been a great help. I'll continue my quest for knowledge on this subject. If anyone's interested in governing themselves and claiming their individual sovereignty, here are some links to information that has helped me:

 

http://freenz.org/

http://www.creditorsincommerce.com/

http://www.legislation.govt.nz

I'm under the impression that New Zealand doesn't have a single founding document, that our 'constitution' is comprised of multiple documents. Would anyone be able to point me to these documents?

 

Cheers

May 1, 2012
1:20 pm
free_az
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10

Another interesting Link

 

August 11, 2012
10:06 pm
Yahel116
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@free_az

 

Hey you have the right idea here but in practice its a bit more of a challenge. When I try to explain to people that I have yet to see any evidence that the law applies to me or anyone else, people start to become very defensive as if i'm attacking there personal beliefs (and perhaps in a way I am) however i'm still waiting for anyone to show me any "factual" evidence that would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that law does apply to me. So lets start with the first response I get after making this claim:

"It applies to you because its the law"….. We all know this is an incorrect statement because that's the same thing as saying "the bible is factual because its the bible". That's not evidence that it is anything at all.

The next one is little bit better: "it applies to you because you live here!"….. ok at least this one makes a little more sense… at first. This statement is saying that my current geological presence makes me apart of and obligated to a higher authority. Right? Well if that were true think about this, google the catholic arch diocese map for your location. It's divided into different sections with fictional lines to show which one is in your area. Now look at that and say "my presence here makes me and everyone in this area a christian and I must obey the pope". Sounds funny right? Ok, so obviously my presence somewhere is not evidence that I am under the jurisdiction or apart of any group.

 

I am not a fan of presumptions so if I had to court for something before I get in too far I would request the foundation evidence for the claim made against me. The "person" making the claim should prove all aspects of her/her claim. If the claim is I violated the law, then first I would like to see evidence that the law applies to me, rather than presuming it does and beginning to defend myself. Why would I defend myself if I didn't think there was anything to defend against in the first place? Who knows maybe one day they will have something to show me. 

August 21, 2012
1:34 pm
dbuckley
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Yahel116 said:

"It applies to you because its the law"….. We all know this is an incorrect statement because that's the same thing as saying "the bible is factual because its the bible". That's not evidence that it is anything at all.

Well,… if you go back a bit in history both statements were true for exactly the same reason.

Time was, if you had questioned the bible then well meaning religious types would simply have killed you.  As Wikipedia notes, in Britain, the then 20-year-old Thomas Aikenhead was executed in 1697 for the crime of denying the veracity of the Old Testament and the legitimacy of Christ's miracles.

The law applies to you not because you accept that it does, but because there are people who will apply the law to you, irrespective of your views on the matter.  They out-power and outnumber you.  There isn't even going to be a discussion along the lines of "first I would like to see evidence that the law applies to me".

Seriously – if "the law doesn't apply to me" was a usable defence, don't you think that would be defense strategy number one for every accused?  Every defendent would say "nope, not my law, I don't agree, doesn't apply to me, let me go".  Every trial would then end as the accused walks out the door smiling.

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